Slackware 15

Talk about other linux distributions, or even other OSes.
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missTell
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Re: Slackware 15

Post by missTell » 1. Dec 2021, 17:18

ChuangTzu wrote:
13. Oct 2019, 20:27
Xfce 4.14 is out [...]
I'm very much aware that I am not making myself any friends here, when I say, if the new Salix comes out based on Xfce, it'll not be worth downloading. Xfce 4.14 is utterly broken, 'totgeburt' ('stillbirth'). I don't really expect that anyone will ever ask me why, but I expect that many Xfce fans will tell me how I don't know what I am talking about, and so I'll not even bother to explain. However, if Salix would be "my child", I'd look in KDE (I hate it like a disease!!) or in Fly (Astra Linux KDE version, that uses half as much RAM, and KDE uses very little, if the compositing, animations, 'effects' and such are disabled) ... if there is someone who could do all the work to bring it to Slackware / Salix. Sorry ...
“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.” (Mark Twain)

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ivanovnegro
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Re: Slackware 15

Post by ivanovnegro » 1. Dec 2021, 20:19

I am not sure about Xfce 4.14 but I guess Slackware 15 will come with 4.16 and as far as I know it works well apart from using a bit more resources because it is based on Gtk3 but I would not speak of it as a "Totgeburt". I only can remember that 4.14 was buggier compared to 4.12 and 4.16.
Though I will miss 4.12 because in my book it runs better (as in lighter) than the newer versions and does not use Gnome's client side decorations apart from Thunar crashing when renaming files.

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missTell
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Re: Slackware 15

Post by missTell » 3. Dec 2021, 07:53

ivanovnegro wrote:
1. Dec 2021, 20:19
I am not sure about Xfce 4.14 but I guess Slackware 15 will come with 4.16 and as far as I know it works well apart from using a bit more resources because it is based on Gtk3 but I would not speak of it as a "Totgeburt". I only can remember that 4.14 was buggier compared to 4.12 and 4.16.
Though I will miss 4.12 because in my book it runs better (as in lighter) than the newer versions and does not use Gnome's client side decorations apart from Thunar crashing when renaming files.
4.14, 4.16 ...it doesn't matter. Each new version is more broken than the previous. Lighter is not so much of an issue. 250 or 350 MB RAM for a WM makes a little difference today, when even a $400 ~ 600 laptops come with 8 GB RAM.

The issue is that it is technically broken. Now, if you see it in a typical 'Linux fanboy/~girl' manner, and if you say 'I can fix it', then you missed the point.

There are some 1.5 billion PC users out there, and 99.99 percent of them do not know or do not even care about 'DE', or 'WM', or even 'operating system'. People use computer as a tool, and they do not work with operating systems, but with applications. Those people are the measure -- not you. People from 9 to 90+ use the computers, and they have different customization needs, because they use all different kinds of screens, from 1366 x 768, up to 8K, and because many people have eyesight problems. Not many old people can live with 28 Px tall task bar ...

Let's say, I install someone something Xfce ... Manjaro, Mint, MX ... you name it. Let's see what happens if a user requires 48 Px toolbar ...

https://ibb.co/565bk2J

https://ibb.co/SRqcsJf

https://ibb.co/Yt8yhB1

Now, if you carefully examine those screenshots, and look at the conjunction between the icons on the toolbar and different settings, then you should see what is the issue. If you can't see the issue, and if you just see it as 'but I can fix it', then no matter how much I write, it won't help. Arguments can't help against the selfishness and belief. The fact that I can fix it for myself is irrelevant for the product quality and its suitability for the masses.

Kinda, you need a car, go to 'supercarmarket', pick up some $50'000 middle class thing, bring it home, and then START FIXING IT, so you could use it ...

As someone who loved Xfce and hated KDE/QT, it hurts me to say: *stay (far, far, far ...) away from Xfce and Mate and use Gnome (41), KDE or IceWM. Only with the last three, one can get proper results, suitable for most people. It doesn't help that I even exactly know why Xfce is in such a poor state -- it doesn't make it any better.

* Where 'stay away' doesn't relate to a one single person, who's gonna take Xfce and fix it for itself, out of boredom and nerdy fiddling need, but where 'stay away' relates to 'I am trying to produce a polished distro'.
“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.” (Mark Twain)

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gapan
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Re: Slackware 15

Post by gapan » 3. Dec 2021, 12:22

missTell wrote:
3. Dec 2021, 07:53
If you can't see the issue, and if you just see it as 'but I can fix it', then no matter how much I write, it won't help.
I have no idea what issue you're trying to show with those screenshots.
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ivanovnegro
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Re: Slackware 15

Post by ivanovnegro » 3. Dec 2021, 15:47

I doubt I will ever see the population of Linux or computer users you speak about ever going to Salix and not to mention Slackware so the whole discussion why Xfce is "broken" does not make sense to me and no I am not a fanboy or -girl. Xfce just happens to suck less than the rest for my use case. It is far from perfect.

Use what fits your needs!

In the meantime I will happily wait for Slackware 15 to release and see Salix striving with a nice Xfce implementation.

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missTell
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Re: Slackware 15

Post by missTell » 3. Dec 2021, 16:24

A broken very basic Xfce functionality.

The most important OS property is legibility of control elements.

The most OS come with a task bar, and a task bar consists of application icons and system icons.

The most users do not customize the OS, except for, change the wallpaper and resize the task bar -- if they can't see very well.

The most people need the same basic elements: applications, networking / Bluetooth, volume, time / date and the battery control, if they use a laptop.

Now, let's say, an elderly person, without a 101 % eyesight power, is trying to use our operating system, and it has to enlarge the toolbar from 28 to 48 Px size ...

KDE @ 28 Px:

https://ibb.co/VtX55MX

https://ibb.co/cgpcwW0

KDE @ 48 Px:

https://ibb.co/Ms34fZ7

https://ibb.co/VDKFYgg

Let's see what Xfce gives ... Since Xfce has automatic and manual icon sizing, there will be additional screenshots. Check the image title.

Xfce @ 28 Px (Auto icon size):

https://ibb.co/1R5gXHT

https://ibb.co/6XhCL4z

https://ibb.co/gzfbpGL

Xfce @ 48 Px (Auto icon size):

https://ibb.co/82F6ZF8

https://ibb.co/vJvLqs1

https://ibb.co/3kmnV0V

With other words, if my mum or grandpa, or your neighbor, or its child, dares to have less than perfect eyesight, and if it ever dares to change something as essential as the height of the task bar, it'll be pretty much screwed up, and it'll need some expert help ... Will say -- unusable for 'normal's' ... 99 % of PC users. Microsoft Windows can do it. Apple macOS can do it. KDE can do it ...

Xfce @ 48 Px (Manual icon size):

https://ibb.co/8Pv94w7

https://ibb.co/drqTTzV

Exaggerated and just to help you notice the icon scaling issue in automatic and manual mode even better:

https://ibb.co/qJRwdNK

https://ibb.co/dkdVfcN

https://ibb.co/bRv88Bk

https://ibb.co/qjrDjjh

The clock follows its own rules ... Basically, almost each and every icon has another size, and even those which scaled seemingly properly, didn't scale well. Yes, I know the reason, but it doesn't make it any better ... and no, there is no simple fix to it. Yes, I can do it for myself, or for a family or friends, but that's not a solution in a case where we're basically trying to make a 'Linux for human beings' (the old Ubuntu slogan).

Probably easier to download the MX-21 and see 'the future of Xfce' yourself ...

https://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/mx-21-xfce.html
“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.” (Mark Twain)

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missTell
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Re: Slackware 15

Post by missTell » 3. Dec 2021, 16:29

ivanovnegro wrote:
3. Dec 2021, 15:47
I doubt I will ever see the population of Linux or computer users you speak about ever going to Salix and not to mention Slackware so the whole discussion why Xfce is "broken" does not make sense to me and no I am not a fanboy or -girl. Xfce just happens to suck less than the rest for my use case. It is far from perfect.

Use what fits your needs!

In the meantime I will happily wait for Slackware 15 to release and see Salix striving with a nice Xfce implementation.
That's exactly why Linux will never become a product.

The Linux community consists mainly of selfish, nerds, fiddlers and hobbyists ...
“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.” (Mark Twain)

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ivanovnegro
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Re: Slackware 15

Post by ivanovnegro » 3. Dec 2021, 16:35

missTell wrote:
3. Dec 2021, 16:24
A broken very basic Xfce functionality.

The most important OS property is legibility of control elements.

The most OS come with a task bar, and a task bar consists of application icons and system icons.
I see where you are getting at and yes, that is not good and I know about the issue that is also why I am so happy with 4.12 though I am not sure if I tried to resize the taskbar that much yet on that version.

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ivanovnegro
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Re: Slackware 15

Post by ivanovnegro » 3. Dec 2021, 16:45

missTell wrote:
3. Dec 2021, 16:29
The Linux community consists mainly of selfish, nerds, fiddlers and hobbyists ...
Wow. Thank you for your kind words.

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gapan
Salix Wizard
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Re: Slackware 15

Post by gapan » 3. Dec 2021, 17:02

missTell wrote:
3. Dec 2021, 16:24
The clock follows its own rules ... Basically, almost each and every icon has another size, and even those which scaled seemingly properly, didn't scale well. Yes, I know the reason, but it doesn't make it any better ... and no, there is no simple fix to it. Yes, I can do it for myself, or for a family or friends, but that's not a solution in a case where we're basically trying to make a 'Linux for human beings' (the old Ubuntu slogan).
After all those screenshots, your whole point is that "the clock text does not scale with taskbar size"? Is there something else I'm still missing? If that's the case, why didn't you just say so, instead of posting all those screenshots and text and letting everyone guess? I still don't see anything wrong with the icons, I guess I'm just blind then.
missTell wrote:
3. Dec 2021, 16:24
Probably easier to download the MX-21 and see 'the future of Xfce' yourself ...

https://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/mx-21-xfce.html
Isn't that still xfce?
missTell wrote:
3. Dec 2021, 16:29
That's exactly why Linux will never become a product.
That... is a good thing.
missTell wrote:
3. Dec 2021, 16:29
The Linux community consists mainly of selfish, nerds, fiddlers and hobbyists ...
Apart from selfish, I don't mind being called all that at all, so that also good I guess. Even being selfish might not be that bad at times.
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