Slackware 15

Talk about other linux distributions, or even other OSes.
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missTell
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Re: Slackware 15

Post by missTell »

ivanovnegro wrote: 3. Dec 2021, 16:35 I see where you are getting at and yes, that is not good and I know about the issue that is also why I am so happy with 4.12 though I am not sure if I tried to resize the taskbar that much yet on that version.
Tried to resize 'that much' is relative. One can clearly see the issue if one goes from 28 to 36 Px, but people most would go for something like 48 / 52 Px (48 Px icons + 2 Px padding -- on each side == 52 Px toolbar).

That the issue comes because of GTK2/3/4 and PNG/SVG icons, is completely irrelevant for the user.

Gapan didn't notice the issue even at 128 Px ... ;)
“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.” (Mark Twain)
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missTell
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Re: Slackware 15

Post by missTell »

gapan wrote: 3. Dec 2021, 17:02 [1] After all those screenshots, your whole point is that "the clock text does not scale with taskbar size"? Is there something else I'm still missing?
missTell wrote: 3. Dec 2021, 16:24 Probably easier to download the MX-21 and see 'the future of Xfce' yourself ...

https://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/mx-21-xfce.html
[2] Isn't that still xfce?
1. Nothing ... except of EVERYTHING. :) :) :)

2. Yeees ... It's still BROKEN Xfce ...

Did you downloaded it and tried to resize the task bar?

Did you even read what Dedoimedo wrote? Exactly what I wrote ... before him ...

This is how the proper resizing / scaling should look like:

@ 28 Px:

https://imgur.com/a/nXS9dhb

@ 52 Px:

https://imgur.com/a/r5vDMIR

Notice the difference, when compared to previous screenshots?
“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.” (Mark Twain)
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gapan
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Re: Slackware 15

Post by gapan »

missTell wrote: 3. Dec 2021, 18:08 1. Nothing ... except of EVERYTHING. :) :) :)
Well, if you're trying to make a point, just make it. Don't let everyone try to guess what you mean.
missTell wrote: 3. Dec 2021, 18:08 2. Yeees ... It's still BROKEN Xfce ...
See? Your previous post looks like you think that, in contrast with everything else, it is a good example. If you wanted to say that it is still broken, why didn't you say so?
missTell wrote: 3. Dec 2021, 18:08 Did you downloaded it and tried to resize the task bar?
Of course not! I don't have the time to do that.
missTell wrote: 3. Dec 2021, 18:08 Did you even read what Dedoimedo wrote? Exactly what I wrote ... before him ...
No time to do that either. Again, if you want to make a point, just make it.
missTell wrote: 3. Dec 2021, 18:08 This is how the proper resizing / scaling should look like:

@ 28 Px:

https://imgur.com/a/nXS9dhb

@ 52 Px:

https://imgur.com/a/r5vDMIR

Notice the difference, when compared to previous screenshots?
Not really sure. The previous screenshots don't load for me right now for some reason. But I don't have the time to play "Find the difference" games either. Try posting something more direct, like: "The battery tray icon does not scale well".
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missTell
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Re: Slackware 15

Post by missTell »

With all due respect, but what are you writing here is a complete nonsense.

That is a 'common sense' issue, on a level of a pre-school child.

Telling me "Of course not! I don't have the time to do that." feels like a personal insult.

It doesn't take you more than 5 minutes, to look at the images, to look at the settings (automatically/manually), and to look how the icons (not) behave at the given settings. Saying something like "The battery tray icon does not scale well" is a bit of a problem, when all of the icons are somehow involved, according to different settings.

It doesn't take you more than 15 minutes, to read the Dedoimedos writing, concerning Xfce ...

It doesn't take you more than 30 ~ 45 minutes, to download the ISO and try the latest Xfce yourself ...

Time ... Nobody has time. Nobody ever had time. People TAKE themselves time, for what is important to them.

But, it takes me a couple of hours to prepare another set of screenshots -- to help YOU! I don't give a **** for broken Xfce. My Windows has no issues, my Mac has no issues, and my Linux -- my Ubuntu and my Fedora Gnome have no issues ...

Now, you are trying to build a new Salix version, that will be based on new components ...

The first thing you MUST do, is to TAKE yourself time, and to inform yourself about those components.

Other ways, you will soon have even much less time, as you will first build something, and then have to resolve the issues with it ... because you 'didn't have time', when it was time.

I am basically just trying to save you your own time.

However, back to the topic ...

The previous screenshots didn't load, because the image hoster had some technical problems. Nothing we can do about, except to postpone examining the screenshots to another time, and to postpone writing comments, if we couldn't see those images, or not to reply at all, if someone didn't even have time to look at them.

The taskbar consists of application area and the system area. Application area icons are supposed to be bigger (32 ~ 44 Px), and the system area icons are supposed to be smaller (16 ~ 28 Px). Some 30 ~ 60 % size difference, depending on the total taskbar height / width and the users age and eyesight quality.

If the taskbar is horizontal, it'll be usually about 36 ~ 48 Px tall, and if it's vertical, it'll be around 48 ~ 64 Px wide.

If there is a clock on the vertical taskbar (bad idea), it still has to be WELL legible!

This is how the typical Xfce horizontal toolbar looks like:

https://ibb.co/nLHKkN5

If the taskbar elements are properly scaling, enlarging it would give something like this:

https://ibb.co/wMNhSPQ

A properly configured vertical toolbar should look similar to this:

https://ibb.co/LkJpHyv

Ubuntu divides it on two toolbars; left for the applications, and top for the system area.

https://ibb.co/gDBTRML

Such configuration works basically very well in Xfce too.

https://ibb.co/FbGr69q

Now, the issue with the latest Xfce is, that it just doesn't scale properly.

Yes, one could still achieve any of those good examples, BUT ... this is something what I can do, or you, or another freckling nerd, but that is not doable for the 99 % of computer USERS (== NOT freckling, nerdy freaks, like we are).

I put the text directly to images, so no need for any further explanations ...

https://ibb.co/z8ppLRX

https://ibb.co/60vs4SG

https://ibb.co/yRVj8Ys

https://ibb.co/dMfMpr1

https://ibb.co/cQVGPdM

https://ibb.co/4PtQL4k

https://ibb.co/Rbd4Kb3

https://ibb.co/WGYLngX

Xfce (and Mate) is utterly broken.
“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.” (Mark Twain)
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gapan
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Re: Slackware 15

Post by gapan »

Sorry, I don't have the time to read this wall of text.
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missTell
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Re: Slackware 15

Post by missTell »

YOU are building a Xfce based distro, AND YOU HAVE NO TIME to check why Xfce is broken?

Wish you fun with writing custom .css overrides in /etc, after you've done ...
“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.” (Mark Twain)
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gapan
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Re: Slackware 15

Post by gapan »

missTell wrote: 4. Dec 2021, 15:54 YOU are building a Xfce based distro, ...
That's precisely the reason why I don't have the time to go on a wild goose chase for hours only to find out something that could have been communicated with a simple sentence.
missTell wrote: 4. Dec 2021, 15:54 Wish you fun with writing custom .css overrides in /etc, after you've done ...
I'm quite certain I will never do any of that.
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missTell
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Re: Slackware 15

Post by missTell »

gapan wrote: 5. Dec 2021, 16:05
missTell wrote: 4. Dec 2021, 15:54 YOU are building a Xfce based distro, ...
That's precisely the reason why I don't have the time to go on a wild goose chase for hours only to find out something that could have been communicated with a simple sentence.
Not that it was much longer ...
missTell wrote: 1. Dec 2021, 17:18Xfce 4.14 is utterly broken [...]
missTell wrote: 3. Dec 2021, 07:534.14, 4.16 ...it doesn't matter. Each new version is more broken than the previous.
And, they say, "A Picture Is Worth a Thousand Words" ...
missTell wrote: 3. Dec 2021, 07:53Let's see what happens if a user requires 48 Px toolbar ...

https://ibb.co/565bk2J

https://ibb.co/SRqcsJf

https://ibb.co/Yt8yhB1

Now, if you carefully examine those screenshots, and look at the conjunction between the icons on the toolbar and different settings, then you should see what is the issue.
Just close the eyes, and all issues will vanish, won't work.
gapan wrote: 5. Dec 2021, 16:05
missTell wrote: 4. Dec 2021, 15:54 Wish you fun with writing custom .css overrides in /etc, after you've done ...
I'm quite certain I will never do any of that.
I hope so. Smart people avoid problems -- they don't use what's broken.
missTell wrote: 1. Dec 2021, 17:18[...] if the new Salix comes out based on Xfce, it'll not be worth downloading.
“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.” (Mark Twain)
DidierSpaier
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Re: Slackware 15

Post by DidierSpaier »

missTell wrote: 6. Dec 2021, 12:58 if the new Salix comes out based on Xfce, it'll not be worth downloading.
Feel free to use a distribution that provides another desktop then (you speak only for yourself, right?) Anyway your rant about icons size in XFCE 4.14 is pointless: I just started XFCE 4.16 in Slackware-current (so the version that gapan will almost certainly ship in Salix 15) and the layout is of course very different. Bottom line: this kind of issue should be brought to the attention of the upstream developers, not distribution maintainers.

As the maintainer of another distribution based on Slackware I will also certainly ship XFCE 4.16 in Slint 15.0 alongside other desktops, and won't write CSS either ;)

Cheers,
Didier
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missTell
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Re: Slackware 15

Post by missTell »

DidierSpaier wrote: 7. Dec 2021, 00:48 (you speak only for yourself, right?)
:( :( :( OR :roll: :roll: :roll: OR :lol: :lol: :lol: ? Kinda all of it at the same time ... :(

Reading is more than recognizing the single letters, put them into words, and connect the words into a sentence ...
missTell wrote: 3. Dec 2021, 07:53
There are some 1.5 billion PC users out there, and 99.99 percent of them do not know or do not even care about 'DE', or 'WM', or even 'operating system'. People use computer as a tool, and they do not work with operating systems, but with applications. Those people are the measure [...]
People from 9 to 90+ use the computers
, and they have different customization needs, because they use all different kinds of screens, from 1366 x 768, up to 8K, and because many people have eyesight problems. Not many old people can live with 28 Px tall task bar ...

Let's say, I install someone something Xfce ... Manjaro, Mint, MX ... you name it. Let's see what happens if a user requires 48 Px toolbar ... [...] The fact that I can fix it for myself is irrelevant for the product quality and its suitability for the masses.
missTell wrote: 3. Dec 2021, 16:24
The most users do not customize the OS, except for, change the wallpaper and resize the task bar -- if they can't see very well.

The most people need the same basic elements: applications, networking / Bluetooth, volume, time / date and the battery control, if they use a laptop.

Now, let's say, an elderly person, without a 101 % eyesight power, is trying to use our operating system, and it has to enlarge the toolbar from 28 to 48 Px size ... [...]

With other words, if my mum or grandpa, or your neighbor, or its child, dares to have less than perfect eyesight, and if it ever dares to change something as essential as the height of the task bar, it'll be pretty much screwed up, and it'll need some expert help ... Will say -- unusable for 'normal's' ... 99 % of PC users. Microsoft Windows can do it. Apple macOS can do it. KDE can do it ... [...]

The clock follows its own rules ... Basically, almost each and every icon has another size, and even those which scaled seemingly properly, didn't scale well. Yes, I know the reason, but it doesn't make it any better ... and no, there is no simple fix to it. Yes, I can do it for myself, or for a family or friends, but that's not a solution in a case where we're basically trying to make a 'Linux for human beings' (the old Ubuntu slogan).
Last edited by missTell on 7. Dec 2021, 04:59, edited 1 time in total.
“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.” (Mark Twain)
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