Make the people want what they don't need ...

If you have any suggestions or ideas about improving Salix, here's the place to post them.
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missTell
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Re: Make the people want what they don't need ...

Post by missTell »

DidierSpaier wrote: 12. Sep 2022, 21:33 Easier way to double (or more) your RAM: swap in zram.
PS If you like IceWM, Absolute Linux has it.
Image

You kinda missed the point here only 2 times ...

I was writing about the marketing (USP) and about 'reasonable ... thinking / handling ...'

Image

There is no magic -- ZRAM takes a part of RAM and uses it as swap space with compressed data, and that might work for your use case, BUT, if someone is missing the RAM, then ZRAM won't help.

Remember SGI graphics workstations from yore? 16 ~ 32 MB RAM and photo-compositing. It worked because of Alias Eclipse and proxy-images.

Today we have 128 / 256 GB RAM, 32 GB had my 10-year-old laptop, but today we didn't come further when it comes to 'one can't have enough RAM' problematic.

Some people actually use their computers to do some real work ... cut movies, or make fascinating images ...

https://ourplnt.com/mont-blanc-365-giga ... est-photo/

https://petapixel.com/2022/01/05/this-7 ... f-artwork/

As of "If you like IceWM" ... I can think reasonably, which isn't necessary everybodies pair of shoes ... 😉

IceWM vs Xfce:

Image

Image

Image

Image

Facts stay facts.

Exact same installations, no tweaks or optimizations ...

With other words, IceWM should use even fewer resources, if everything is done properly.

However, THE main issue is that the average Linux user (see DW, forums ...) likes to discuss (things they can't understand) RAM usage, and all they know and understand is what numbers they can read in TOP.



djemos wrote: 13. Sep 2022, 08:01 or use openbox
Or TWM? 😉

There are only two problems -- Neither OpenBox, nor TWM will use significantly fewer resources, but they are ugly.

IceWM is simple and beautiful, and very 'Windows-like', which is what most people want and expect.

Adding some Tint's or such atop of OpenBox to make it look like what people expect, would make OB's resources usage higher than IceWM's, and the functionalities still wouldn't be there, or too complicated to manage.



gapan wrote: 13. Sep 2022, 08:02 @missTell, feel free to send me better screenshots.

And I have no control over what screenshots distrowatch decided to use.
WTF? ? ?

1. Of course you have the control -- you don't send them the bad, but only the good screenshots, and then they have a choice among 'the good', 'the gooder' and 'the goodest'! (Yep, I know it's the good / better / best.)

2. https://distrowatch.com/images/slinks/salix.png

Plain, simple Desktop screenshot, without anything open, and you're good to go!



djemos wrote: 13. Sep 2022, 08:39 [1] Consider that made from just one developer. All that should be mentioned is a big "thank you" to Gapan the creator and developer of the distribution for taking the time to create the salix xfce 15.0 release.
[2] Regarding the other versions, e.g. icewm, openbox, mate etc this takes time and work. It's not just changing some programs or wallpapers. Anyone who has dealt with creating a distribution derivative understands. A lot of time is needed and work.
Nobody denied the achievement, BUT, now you don't want to become 'dormant' again, but you want people to talk about you, which brings us back to marketing and USP ...

It would be EXTREMELY easy for Gapan to make a 32-bit IceWM-only edition, as there is already a 32-bit edition. It only takes a couple of minor changes, something like to add SpaceFM, replace Light DM with Slim, add extra-light web browser (Surf -- just for the case, beside FF), remove or hide Thunar and few unneeded Xfce components, and that's it. I would make a few IceWM themes to accompany it all, and you're good to go.

And in regard of 64-bit Xfce edition, it would even be much easier: remove the Qogir icon-set, remove the *Qogir cursor (probably the worst and ugliest cursor ever made), remove the Salix-GTK theme and artwork, and replace them with the material which I provide. Add a few minor panel / desktop configuration tweaks, and you're done ... in an hour, or two?

* A good cursor either has to look good, or to be usable, if possible both, but the Qogir cursor is none of both.



Papasot wrote: 13. Sep 2022, 12:01 Right, so what we need now is pinkish colors in the desktop and sexy lips as wallpapers... Last time I checked, Salix was not exactly a distribution for horny teenagers. :lol:
Yep, and that's why it was 'dormant' on DW -- because nobody ever talked about it. 😉

And also, there are users and users -- what some hate, the others love and vice versa, and -- the people would talk about Salix.

In ideal case, one would like to have a 'install and use' edition for everybody, and not to start with removing pagers and adding the essentials like the battery / energy manager to your panel.
Papasot wrote: 13. Sep 2022, 12:01 Also, gapan made it crystal clear he doesn't care much about "top 100" [...] I don't want it to be near the top.
Why even bother presenting it on DW after all? A couple of nerds in the forum know that it's there. Isn't that enough?

There's no new 32-bit only HW for more than 15-years, so, if someone really needs a computer, buying one every 10 ~ 15 years wouldn't be an overkill.

IceWM is a good choice for an old computer and, it doesn't need much to get a functional desktop. What it is really missing is a GUI configuration, but that's why the Art-Editions -- everything comes properly preconfigured and ready to use upon install, and there's NO NEED to change absolutely anything -- who WANTs to fiddle and reconfigure, is, of course, free to do so.

OpenBox plus Tint or FB aren't better looking, nor easier to use, nor use significantly fewer resources, so, yeah ...

Apropos Slackel, it could also need some lift-up ...

Image



hugok wrote: 12. Sep 2022, 21:59 @missTell I really liked the idea of the Editions and the artwork!

Being Slackware based salix is hard to stay visible on Distrowatch, so it would be good for salix promotion.

About the IceWm version, I couldn't agree more because I'm the Portuguese translator of antiX and IceWM! So I quite enjoy the speed and "low resource" IceWM environment.
It's about attracting more people, and about make the people talk about you.

Just like in show business ... film stars ... an actress kissed a girl during dinner, and the next day, all the newspapers and the internet are full of "Is she a bi"? The most important in such 'scandal' is that people talk about it, and that one doesn't go down "the sands of time" ...

USP -- The Unique Selling Point

And the only thing where Salix can become different from all other 300 all-the-same distributions is by offering such Art-Editions.

Nobody on Earth but me has the Dracula or Fatale Pink, or ... IceWM themes, and even in the case of Xfce, where anybody can simply download and install the stuff, many people don't know how to install it properly. So, you make them a service, and you issue that the people talk about you at the same time. Kinda win-win situation, isn't it?
Last edited by missTell on 13. Sep 2022, 13:00, edited 1 time in total.
“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.” (Mark Twain)
hugok
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Re: Make the people want what they don't need ...

Post by hugok »

Papasot wrote: 13. Sep 2022, 12:01
missTell wrote: 12. Sep 2022, 20:39 Now, since the "ugly duckling" got officially released, together with the worst ever screenshot accompanying some new release on DW in the last decade or so, of yet another Linux distribution which nobody needs, we'd like to keep you in the "Top 100", and eventually even move you little bit closer to the top ...
Right, so what we need now is pinkish colors in the desktop and sexy lips as wallpapers... Last time I checked, Salix was not exactly a distribution for horny teenagers. :lol:
I didn't know Salix 15 is the "ugly duckling" but guess what, I think it looks good and, more importantly, it works just fine. I like ducklings anyway. And for the few objections I had about the looks, I just modified Salix-dark theme a bit. Even the default Xfce 4.16 theme is good enough.

Also, gapan made it crystal clear he doesn't care much about "top 100", and I doubt any long-time Salix user cares as well. I would go as far as saying I don't want it to be near the top. Why? Because the only way to get there is to be like Crapbuntu - or whatever it is trendy nowadays. "Top!" is 100% rubbish and it made it there in no time.

missTell wrote: 12. Sep 2022, 20:39 32-bit version must get IceWM version, beside or instead of Xfce, as it consumes ± half of the RAM, and same time, it looks just as good, if not even (much) better, and is more appropriate to those 1992 PC's that some masochists won't let go.
I take the 1992 part as an exaggeration. Well, first of all we are not all as rich as you to throw away our old hardware to buy a new computer every year or two - plus the older one works just fine with the right operating system. Moore's law is more or less dead, in the sense a 10-years old computer (which I'm sure you would consider garbage) can run the right distribution top-notch.
Now about IceWM... it is certainly a good choice for low-end computers, such as the old 32-bit ones. Openbox-based "desktops" are lightweight as well. However, making such a "desktop" fully functional is not as easy as you think. It's not that hard, but if you think it only needs your themes you are totally wrong. It takes time to make a decent desktop out of IceWM or Openbox, and even more time to test everything to be ready at a "flagship desktop" level for a distribution.

hugok wrote: 13. Sep 2022, 10:52 I also like Openbox but only if it has Tint2 panel and jgmenu by default.... :roll:
djemos uses fbpanel instead of tint2 in Slackel. I found fbpanel both good looking and easier to configure - oh, it's ridiculously lightweight as well.
@Papasot Now you made me laugh :lol: :lol: :lol: Nothing like a good discussion.I say this in a good way ;)
Hugo Carvalho
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https://github.com/hugok79
djemos
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Re: Make the people want what they don't need ...

Post by djemos »

@missTell
Just an observation. I am a retired electrical engineer teacher now. As a teacher I had a colleague who had great ideas. Let's do this, build a spacecraft, go to the planet Mars, we can do this or that, etc. But he expected others to do the work. We all have ideas. I don't think "It would be EXTREMELY easy for Gapan to make ...." is the right approach. There is also personal time to earn a living and time for the family.
We are full of ideas. Who has the free time to devote it uncharitably matters. Salix is not ubuntu or debian or redhat etc that have hundreds of developers who be paid for developing. I have also some ideas. Lets do an openbox, a mate, an icewm etc edition. Who will do it? Just one developer? I won't come back to that. It's not lead anywhere.

About slackel it need a lifting. I agree. I cannot doing it, i am not good on graphics. What it matters is the engine to be strong as rock and not leave you in the middle of the road. It is made just for personal use and became public in case people with old computers find useful for them. It has no expectations to be number 100 in distrowatch. I do not care. It is useful for me.
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gapan
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Re: Make the people want what they don't need ...

Post by gapan »

missTell wrote: 13. Sep 2022, 12:31
gapan wrote: 13. Sep 2022, 08:02 @missTell, feel free to send me better screenshots.

And I have no control over what screenshots distrowatch decided to use.
WTF? ? ?

1. Of course you have the control -- you don't send them the bad, but only the good screenshots, and then they have a choice among 'the good', 'the gooder' and 'the goodest'! (Yep, I know it's the good / better / best.)

2. https://distrowatch.com/images/slinks/salix.png

Plain, simple Desktop screenshot, without anything open, and you're good to go!
You are very certain of things you really have no idea about. I never sent any screenshots to distrowatch, good or bad.

Again, feel free to provide the "goodest" screenshots. You could even send them to distrowatch!
Image
Image
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missTell
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Re: Make the people want what they don't need ...

Post by missTell »

djemos wrote: 13. Sep 2022, 13:06 @missTell
[1] Just an observation.

[2] I am a retired electrical engineer teacher now.

[3] But he expected others to do the work. -- I don't think "It would be EXTREMELY easy for Gapan to make ...." is the right approach.

[4] I have also some ideas. Lets do an openbox, [...] an icewm etc edition.

[5] About slackel it need a lifting. I agree. I cannot doing it, i am not good on graphics.

1. Also, just an observation.

2. Different countries, different times for retirement, but basically, I'm just a tiny bit 'fresher corpse', and it's not really a "pinkish colors in the desktop and sexy lips as wallpapers ... for horny teenagers" -- I just know a tiny bit about design, marketing, and about people.

3. It is EXTREMELY easy for Gapan to make it because everything is already there. As you could see in my previous post (which you obviously didn't read) where I explained it, and even brought a few screenshots which prove that even if installed in parallel -- both together at the same time, on the same machine -- just switching to IceWM halves the RAM usage. Will say, installing a handful of 'super-light' apps (Slim, Surf, Ranger, Moc, MPV) for super-old HW, and replacing the existing artwork for another set that I'll specify is all that has to be done.

4. So, why not? It's not really a hard work to add IceWM over the already existing OpenBox.

5. So, ... why don't you ask me?

Don't know about you, but if I don't know something, I have no problem to say, "I can't ... I don't know how ... please tell ... show me ... whatever ... how to do it".

Here the example, so you have something to make you laugh; I use Windows, Windows, Windows, and then sometimes I also use a Mac or Linux, and ... fasten your seat belts ... when I use Linux, it's usually with TWM -- my desktop is a pure and plain emptiness -- and I used it for over 1 1/2 decade so, that I open the Xterm, start the application, and open another Xterm, and start another application ... The Terminals were multiplying ... Didn't really bother me, as one can iconize them, and I never really had a resources consumption issues ... I tried starting the apps in different ways, but whenever I closed the Terminal, the apps died of sudden death ...

Image

Only a couple of days ago, I asked Gapan to tell me the secret behind starting the app over the Terminal, and close the Terminal afterwards, but so, that the application still keeps running. The mistake I did almost two decades long, was to close the Terminal, instead of exiting it (type exit). Happy laugh ...


Disclaimer:
If you fell down from the chair and broke the arm, you can't say I didn't warn you to fasten your seat belt. 😉
“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.” (Mark Twain)
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missTell
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Re: Make the people want what they don't need ...

Post by missTell »

gapan wrote: 13. Sep 2022, 14:09
missTell wrote: 13. Sep 2022, 12:31
gapan wrote: 13. Sep 2022, 08:02 @missTell, feel free to send me better screenshots.

And I have no control over what screenshots distrowatch decided to use.
WTF? ? ?

1. Of course you have the control -- you don't send them the bad, but only the good screenshots, and then they have a choice among 'the good', 'the gooder' and 'the goodest'! (Yep, I know it's the good / better / best.)

2. https://distrowatch.com/images/slinks/salix.png

Plain, simple Desktop screenshot, without anything open, and you're good to go!
You are very certain of things you really have no idea about. I never sent any screenshots to distrowatch, good or bad.

Again, feel free to provide the "goodest" screenshots. You could even send them to distrowatch!

What I know is the usual way how it's done ...

Sunday evening (as the release was planed for Monday), a one writes an e-mail to DW.

"Hi Jesse, hi Ladislav,

tomorrow we are announcing the new Salix 15.0 release ... blah, blah, blah ..."

And in that e-mail, there is 'PR-material' attached -- the pixel-perfect positioned windows, no half-cut letter or a word etc.

Image

Image

Image

Out of those three, they would take either 2nd or 3rd, but all three are pixel-perfect.

If you did anything else, then you know what to do on the next release.

Usually, the DW is not chasing the publishing materials.


P.S.
I'm sorry, but I definitely can't send them any materials -- we aren't exactly the greatest friends on Earth. Sorry.
“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.” (Mark Twain)
DidierSpaier
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Re: Make the people want what they don't need ...

Post by DidierSpaier »

missTell wrote: 13. Sep 2022, 12:31
DidierSpaier wrote: 12. Sep 2022, 21:33 Easier way to double (or more) your RAM: swap in zram.
PS If you like IceWM, Absolute Linux has it.
Image
Wondering where does a quote presumably about my grand-father come into play :)
There is no magic -- ZRAM takes a part of RAM and uses it as swap space with compressed data, and that might work for your use case, BUT, if someone is missing the RAM, then ZRAM won't help.
You completely miss the point. Having swap in zram allows to run a system with half the installed RAM that it would need otherwise.
There are only two problems -- Neither OpenBox, nor TWM will use significantly fewer resources, but they are ugly.

IceWM is simple and beautiful, and very 'Windows-like', which is what most people want and expect.

Adding some Tint's or such atop of OpenBox to make it look like what people expect, would make OB's resources usage higher than IceWM's, and the functionalities still wouldn't be there, or too complicated to manage.
I made some tests about RAM used, here are the results according to "free":

Code: Select all

didier[~]$ cat tty # console pode, no graphical server
               total        used        free      shared  buff/cache   available
Mem:           7.7Gi       262Mi       6.9Gi       1.0Mi       521Mi       7.2Gi
Swap:           16Gi          0B        16Gi
Total:          23Gi       262Mi        23Gi
didier[~]$ cat LXQt # The DE and a terminal
               total        used        free      shared  buff/cache   available
Mem:           7.7Gi       525Mi       6.3Gi        36Mi       873Mi       6.9Gi
Swap:           16Gi          0B        16Gi
Total:          23Gi       525Mi        22Gi
didier[~]$ cat FFTB # LXQt + Firefox (no page loaded yet) and Thunderbird
               total        used        free      shared  buff/cache   available
Mem:           7.7Gi       1.0Gi       5.0Gi       339Mi       1.6Gi       6.1Gi
Swap:           16Gi          0B        16Gi
Total:          23Gi       1.0Gi        21Gi
didier[~]$ cat icewm # Ice WM and a terminal
               total        used        free      shared  buff/cache   available
Mem:           7.7Gi       303Mi       6.4Gi        38Mi       946Mi       7.1Gi
Swap:           16Gi          0B        16Gi
Total:          23Gi       303Mi        22Gi
We can observe that:
  • A full desktop (LXQt) does not take much RAM that iceWM equipped with a panel (as built by gapan for the extra-15.0 repository from which I got it)
  • Firefox (in this case without any page loaded) and Thunderbird eat quickly more RAM than the desktop itself
Bear in mind that in a desktop a window manager is just a component even if distribution often add components to bare WM to make them seem like full featured desktops.

Also it is easy to change the WM used by a desktop, often just typing "<WM> --replace".

On LXQt which is fully modular, you have even a GUI to do that. Image
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SalixManiac
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Re: Make the people want what they don't need ...

Post by SalixManiac »

hugok
I also like Openbox but only if it has Tint2 panel and jgmenu by default.... :roll:
i love xfce more than any other desktop, but i used openbox+tint2 on gentoo, my god it's responsive 90mb of memory used.

speed openbox+tint2__________________speed other desktop
Image

Hello Gapam,
are you looking for a business model?
sponsorship like Kali and the city of Nantes?
Emmabuntüs, which refurbishes PCs donated by companies that do not pay eco-tax?
open suse which provides technical support?
manjaro which sells the default search engine?
....
Colin Chapman “light is right” those last words "the middle pedal is for cowards"
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missTell
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Re: Make the people want what they don't need ...

Post by missTell »

DidierSpaier wrote: 13. Sep 2022, 19:38 Bear in mind that in a desktop a window manager is just a component ...
I do, but the people on DW and forums know nothing about memory management, and so, nobody understands that gnome-shell and Wayland need less memory then Xfce with all of it's plugins ... and all what one gets, is still just a broken WM.
DidierSpaier wrote: 13. Sep 2022, 19:38 You completely miss the point. Having swap in zram allows to run a system with half the installed RAM that it would need otherwise.
No, YOU completely missed the point -- (at least) twice ...

If you're missing RAM, then you need more RAM -- zram won't help you -- except if you plan to make holidays, while your PC is swapping, and second, you even completely missed the point of the topic itself, which was "Make the people want what they don't need ...", and not your imaginative zram memory advantage.

That's where the family member's quote comes into play ... if one could see, but if one could see, one wouldn't make nonsense comments ... 😉


P.S.
Check https://www.shellhacks.com/find-top-pro ... age-linux/
“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.” (Mark Twain)
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missTell
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Re: Make the people want what they don't need ...

Post by missTell »

SalixManiac wrote: 13. Sep 2022, 21:07
hugok
I also like Openbox but only if it has Tint2 panel and jgmenu by default.... :roll:
i love xfce more than any other desktop, but i used openbox+tint2 on gentoo, my god it's responsive 90mb of memory used.

speed openbox+tint2__________________speed other desktop
Image

Hello Gapam,
are you looking for a business model?
sponsorship like Kali and the city of Nantes?
Emmabuntüs, which refurbishes PCs donated by companies that do not pay eco-tax?
open suse which provides technical support?
manjaro which sells the default search engine?
....
How many years you're already here, and you're still unable to write GapaN?

Just wondering ... 😉
“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.” (Mark Twain)
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