Cheers from a Devuan User

[brocashelm]

I've been using GNU/Linux since at least 2011 (starting with an old Ubuntu DVD I got in the mail, having been fed up with Windows 7 "updates" already), but never took it seriously enough to make the jump until 2015, and then 2017 to completely replace Windows. At some point, I didn't like what Ubuntu was "offering" its users, so I sought another distro... I found GNU/Linux Mint, which I really liked at first, having used its Xfce edition extensively for two straight years. After getting fed up with the whole Systemd thing, my next best plan was to switch over to Devuan, a really stable, Systemd-free version of Debian with (in my opinion) better defaults. I've been using it straight-up since then, having my needs completely met, and then some.

Now, I've also tried other distros, namely the likes of Arch GNU/Linux, Artix GNU/Linux, Manjaro, antiX, MX GNU/Linux, Void GNU/Linux, Gentoo, etc., only to find that those distros were missing something for me. Well, my distrohopping days are long gone, having fully settled on Devuan, although I've been curious about Slackware and its claims of stability, although I found it to be too archaic for my own needs, and package management not having some sort of dependency checks pretty much put me off from pursuing it.

That's when I realized that Salix exists, and it's basically a more user-friendly version of Slackware, featuring the Apt-like frontend to its package manager. I mainly tried it on a VM for a while, trying to understand the ins and outs of the distro. Having been used to Debian-based distros for far too long, I was in for a surprise. I finally decided to install Salix on a brand new Dell laptop that I got, and it's running superbly fast and lightweight, even with GTK3 having taken over and Xfce not being as lightweight as it once was as a result.

There are some workarounds needed in order to get a comfortable computing experience that I get with Devuan, but thankfully, the SlackBuilds are there in case a package that I want isn't hosted on the official repositories, or the official packages are buggy. For example, Timeshift (system restore utility) isn't hosted by Slackware or Salix, but there exists a SlackBuild of it that I was able to compile and run, so now I can make my own system backups in the event that my Salix laptop runs into a problem. I also really like the inclusion of the GUI tools, and SLI has to be very simple and straight-forward installers when compared to bloated messes such as Calamares (almost every distro "needs" to use it, apparently).

I definitely must thank Gapan, Djemos, and the rest of the talented Salix staff members of old and new for having made this distro a possibility, especially for people like myself who'd been so accustomed to Debian's way of doing things. Although I'm not planning on switching out of Devuan anytime soon, I'd like to spice things up a bit and not just default to yet another install that uses a Debian base of some sort! Salix is definitely hitting that sweet spot for me, being a bit "crustier" than even Debian -- which leads me to the next segment of my introduction...

As open-source continues to "change", I find that a lot of traditional Unix concepts become less relevant with the average GNU/Linux user just wanting things for the sake of "newness" (instead of usefulness). I used to be really into rolling releases at one point, but I've come to find out that it becomes a chore -- almost like a second job -- just to be "up-to-date" on whatever was just pushed to git upstream. While it's nice to get something new and shiny every once in a while, I don't think it's the be-all and end-all of FLOSS as a philosophy. Just because a package is "old" doesn't mean it "sucks" or is "useless"... The meaning of "stability" has apparently been lost on a lot of people (myself included), implying that something "doesn't crash often" as its merit. Instead, it is rightfully about software that has been well-tested by multiple developers and users kind enough to volunteer for the role, guaranteeing that the bugs get patched up before being released, ergo not changing every five minutes. THAT is what I actively view as an example of software stability, and that could still include software released last month that hasn't changed.

In saying that, I find that the GNU/Linux ecosystem is getting too complex and... Corporate. Yes, I said it: Linux (the kernel) is having too much of that "modernism" concept being forced in, and I blame the likes of Red Hat, Canonical, GNOME, and Freedesktop.org (there are other "suspects", but we'll just leave it at these four). The constant push to get things like Systemd, PipeWire, and Wayland (there are even more "projects") as hard dependencies was always very suspect to me, when SysVinit, ALSA, and Xorg "just work". Even in SysVinit's case, you can use Runit, OpenRC, Dinit, or S6 in its place, if the thought of it being "abandoned" frightens you. ALSA works just fine for me, and there are servers such as the amazing Sndio from OpenBSD that you could try to get certain layers to work with your devices.

Speaking of OpenBSD, that's another OS that I've been using lately, by the way, in the wake of all these "pushes" by aforementioned corporations and organizations). I totally look forward to 7.4's release later this year, as I want to use it as a desktop outside of relying on GNU/Linux. Its Xfce implementation is very good. Perhaps it is slow and lacks some of the features that the Linux kernel offers, but I could see myself using it for very basic, minimalistic use cases. In relation to Slackware (and Salix), I find that's the GNU/Linux distro with the closest likeness to that of a BSD OS (especially OpenBSD, if we're talking cleaner, simpler, secure code approaches).

Anyway, thanks for reading this far. Looking forward to chatting with everyone soon.

[Papasot]

After getting fed up with the whole Systemd thing, my next best plan was to switch over to Devuan, a really stable, Systemd-free version of Debian with (in my opinion) better defaults. I've been using it straight-up since then, having my needs completely met, and then some.

Debian refugee, I salute you!
I left Debian years ago, for the exact same reason(s) as you. Devuan was just starting back when I said goodbye to Debian. I settled to Salix and never regret it.

Now, I've also tried other distros, namely the likes of Arch GNU/Linux, Artix GNU/Linux, Manjaro, antiX, MX GNU/Linux, Void GNU/Linux, Gentoo, etc.

antiX and Void are both systemd-free (systemd is not available even as an option), but antiX is also elogind-free now. Both great distros.

I can make my own system backups in the event that my Salix laptop runs into a problem.

Ummm... there is no such a thing.
I use Salix as my daily driver since 2015 and it never had any problem. It is hard-rock-stable. Well, if you really mess it up as root, of course it will have problems - or if your hardware fails. I doubt you will ever need backups otherwise.

I find that a lot of traditional Unix concepts become less relevant with the average GNU/Linux user just wanting things for the sake of "newness" (instead of usefulness). I used to be really into rolling releases at one point, but I've come to find out that it becomes a chore -- almost like a second job -- just to be "up-to-date" on whatever was just pushed to git upstream. While it's nice to get something new and shiny every once in a while, I don't think it's the be-all and end-all of FLOSS as a philosophy.

I agree completely, although I always have at least one "conservative" rolling distro installed - it is handy in several cases.
What I do in Salix is keeping a personal repository with a few packages I really want up-to-date. It's not hard to make such a repo and make it work with slapt-get or Gslapt. If you want a conservative rolling distro, have a look at Slackel or Slint. They are both Salix's friends.

In saying that, I find that the GNU/Linux ecosystem is getting too complex and... Corporate. Yes, I said it: Linux (the kernel) is having too much of that "modernism" concept being forced in, and I blame the likes of Red Hat, Canonical, GNOME, and Freedesktop.org

Trust me, the thing that bothers me in GNU/Linux is... Linux, the kernel. Too monolithic and bloated.
As for RedHat, Canonical and the like, well... hard to say anything about them without swearing heavily, so I'll just censor myself.

...when SysVinit, ALSA, and Xorg "just work". Even in SysVinit's case, you can use Runit, OpenRC, Dinit,

I especialy like Runit as an alternative, and I wish it would be more popular. It is simple and very effective.

Speaking of OpenBSD, that's another OS that I've been using lately, by the way, in the wake of all these "pushes" by aforementioned corporations and organizations). I totally look forward to 7.4's release later this year, as I want to use it as a desktop outside of relying on GNU/Linux. Its Xfce implementation is very good.

FreeBSD user here. OpenBSD is nice, and comes with excellent tools - but I think it is designed with servers in mind rather than the "desktop" (whatever that means). Although you can have a desktop OpenBSD system with Xfce or whatever, it's not a coincidence CWM as its default window manager (which is nice but definitely not for the average desktop user). FreeBSD has the best packaging system I've ever seen, huge repos, and it's as lightweight as you wish. I personally use it with (heavily modified) Openbox as my window manager, and it runs great even on ancient hardware. Still, any BSD is a good choice.

[brocashelm]

Thanks for the warm welcome!

Debian refugee, I salute you!
I left Debian years ago, for the exact same reason(s) as you. Devuan was just starting back when I said goodbye to Debian. I settled to Salix and never regret it.

I still think that Debian is a solid distro, but the "upstream decisions" have left me feeling rather conflicted over the years. Devuan is the only truly good fork of it that I can use for all of my needs, even if Elogind is still a hard dependency.

antiX and Void are both systemd-free (systemd is not available even as an option), but antiX is also elogind-free now. Both great distros.

antiX is a decent choice if you want an even more minimal system than Devuan, but I find that the vanilla approach is best when rebasing, and my politics do not agree with its "philosophy". Void GNU/Linux was interesting, but after reading about what they did to their founder, I dropped support immediately. I guess it's a good middle ground if you want Arch GNU/Linux with less bloat a la Gentoo-style minimalism.

Ummm... there is no such a thing.
I use Salix as my daily driver since 2015 and it never had any problem. It is hard-rock-stable. Well, if you really mess it up as root, of course it will have problems - or if your hardware fails. I doubt you will ever need backups otherwise.

I think that applies when you understand how your system works. I've been having some weird "blackout" bugs with Salix when testing on a VM and even on bare metal, usually during a package operation. My Xfce desktop and panel would fade out to black and disappear, and I couldn't even fix that with a reboot. Even if it doesn't break again anytime soon, I'm going to be a lot more careful and make backups regularly. This can apply to other distros one is not familiarized with.

My problems with Debian were only a "thing" when I started using it (especially Ubuntu ), so now I can comfortably tinker around with it and not see any significant issues. Mind you, I'm not switching out of Devuan anytime soon -- I'm just interested in trying a distro that adheres more to Unix philosophy, so Salix was it (I'd have gone for Slackware, but Salix is much more sensible with its defaults of not cluttering things up for the sake of installing just one DE, plus having package management that at least checks for functional dependencies to ensure breakages occur less often). I think it's a smart idea to use more than just one distro for your use cases, and that even includes a whole different OS... Such as one of the BSDs.

I agree completely, although I always have at least one "conservative" rolling distro installed - it is handy in several cases.
What I do in Salix is keeping a personal repository with a few packages I really want up-to-date. It's not hard to make such a repo and make it work with slapt-get or Gslapt. If you want a conservative rolling distro, have a look at Slackel or Slint. They are both Salix's friends.

I've tried to really like Arch GNU/Linux (that includes Artix GNU/Linux), but there were always issues with using Pacman to apply updates, such as GPG keys having to be authenticated or an install not going through because of something strange happening in the background. That, combined with the AUR, just sounded like a recipe for disaster if you weren't careful.

Debian (and Devuan to that extent) never gave me such problems, unless I was Frankensteining it with older and/or newer repositories. I will say that I have really enjoyed using the unstable branch of the distro for the past three years, but I got tired of the extensive chore of updating throughout the day, so I waited for the then-current testing branch to go into a freeze for me to switch to it and wait for it to stabilize. Now that Bookworm has been released, I'm technically on a stable release again (although Daedalus is still unreleased by Devuan, understandably so).

What I learned from Salix with its "one program per task" philosophy was applied to my Devuan installs, so I made use of handy packages such as Debfoster and Deborphan to do away with orphaned and otherwise unneeded packages. Still, I think one thing that Salix got wrong was the default choice in browser being Firefox (particularly with Mozilla's violations to user privacy), when Pale Moon, LibreWolf, and even Ungoogled Chromium are MUCH better alternatives. I guess the moral of the story is the best distro is the one that you customize yourself, so I can always just add, change, and remove what I'm not satisfied with.

Trust me, the thing that bothers me in GNU/Linux is... Linux, the kernel. Too monolithic and bloated.
As for RedHat, Canonical and the like, well... hard to say anything about them without swearing heavily, so I'll just censor myself.

That's part of why I've been giving OpenBSD a shot. Just like Slackware, it is an OS that doesn't have corporate backings of any kind. It is purely community-driven and not blinded by nonsensical "politics" (such as implementing a "code of conduct" in software, of all places). For anything remotely resembling deterioration, it would take a completely hostile takeover to pervert the project. I like to use these things as tools, and the only thing I want to read is how code can be improved for syntax, rather than semantics (if that makes any sense).

I especialy like Runit as an alternative, and I wish it would be more popular. It is simple and very effective.

I know. I had problems getting it to work with Salix, so I'll just stick with SysVinit until there is official support for Runit from Slackware. It's fast enough for me, even using an HDD on my laptop (I'll eventually swap it with an SSD). Either way, it's just an init that gets out of the way beyond PID1, unlike, you know, Systemd...

FreeBSD user here. OpenBSD is nice, and comes with excellent tools - but I think it is designed with servers in mind rather than the "desktop" (whatever that means). Although you can have a desktop OpenBSD system with Xfce or whatever, it's not a coincidence CWM as its default window manager (which is nice but definitely not for the average desktop user). FreeBSD has the best packaging system I've ever seen, huge repos, and it's as lightweight as you wish. I personally use it with (heavily modified) Openbox as my window manager, and it runs great even on ancient hardware. Still, any BSD is a good choice.

I've tried GhostBSD (FreeBSD fork) a couple of times before, and it was mostly solid. I liked the GUI for package management, which seems effective in helping a GNU/Linux user get comfortable with its usage. I also like the fact that they provide live ISOs for MATE (official) and Xfce (community), so newbies aren't "greeted" to a black screen with text on it. With that said, I found OpenBSD's installer to be quite quick and painless to get through. I'm also preferring OpenBSD because I want to avoid as much Linux-isms as possible, while still having a "familiar" environment. Its package manager is a bit similar to Slackware's, what with the dependencies being pulled (since neither break them up into library or development packages). I've also found Doas, OpenNTPD, and Xenocara to be wonderful pieces of software, so I will keep learning their ins and outs.

[ChuangTzu]

Welcome to Salix. I had a thread over on Debian from years ago when they switched to systemd....it was something along the lines of what distros to consider if you want to avoid systemd.... looking for it...... Found it.... "Options for those wanting to avoid systemd Wheezy EOL looms" https://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php ... ilit=salix

runit is decent, have not seen the need for it on Slackware or Salix since the setup has always been fine as is.

[Papasot]

antiX is a decent choice if you want an even more minimal system than Devuan, but I find that the vanilla approach is best when rebasing, and my politics do not agree with its "philosophy".

I'm not sure what you mean, but if you mean what I think you do, I have to say you don't judge a distribution by the political beliefs of its developer. Admittedly, antiX developer doesn't hide his philosophy, but I am perfectly ok with that. At least he is honest, you have to grant him that. If the few links in Firefox bother you, just delete them - there, "problem" solved.
The fact is, antiX delivers - especially in old hardware. I have an eePC with the worst graphics card even made, and system runs dead slow in any GNU/Linux distro I tried because there are no drivers for it. The only distro that runs well in it is antiX.

Void GNU/Linux was interesting, but after reading about what they did to their founder, I dropped support immediately.

From what information I was able to gather, it seems there were conflicts in Void's developers team. Who was "right" and who wasn't is something we would never know for sure. Again, I judge what they made, not who they are.
I like the fact Void is not a fork, it is its own thing, doesn't use Pulseaudio by default, and follows a conservative rolling release scheme, which works.

Still, I think one thing that Salix got wrong was the default choice in browser being Firefox (particularly with Mozilla's violations to user privacy), when Pale Moon, LibreWolf, and even Ungoogled Chromium are MUCH better alternatives. I guess the moral of the story is the best distro is the one that you customize yourself, so I can always just add, change, and remove what I'm not satisfied with.

I'm not going to defend Mozilla here, I have some concerns about it, as you do. Still, I can see why it is the default browser in Salix. I would also argue that any browser based on that abomination called Chrome (even ung00gled - mind the zeroes) should be out of question. By the way Chrome managed to be that "popular" not because it is better but just because they used a PUP (Potentiall Unwanted Program) "strategy", especially on Window$. Many application installers have Chrome installed as a side effect for most users that don't read the small details and the well-hidden tiny option "also install Chrome" - which is pre-checked, of course.

I know. I had problems getting it to work with Salix, so I'll just stick with SysVinit until there is official support for Runit from Slackware. It's fast enough for me, even using an HDD on my laptop (I'll eventually swap it with an SSD). Either way, it's just an init that gets out of the way beyond PID1, unlike, you know, Systemd...

Runit is admittedly faster and simpler, but I am perfectly ok with SysVinit as well. Most of my computers still have HDDs and the problem to coinsider is overheating at hot summer days, not SysVinit.

I've tried GhostBSD (FreeBSD fork) a couple of times before, and it was mostly solid. I liked the GUI for package management, which seems effective in helping a GNU/Linux user get comfortable with its usage. I also like the fact that they provide live ISOs for MATE (official) and Xfce (community), so newbies aren't "greeted" to a black screen with text on it.

GhostBSD is an african word meaning "I can't configure FreeBSD". I don't like the fact it comes with MATE as default instead of Xfce, even if there is a non-official Xfce version.
MidnightBSD is another option, it has a pre-configured desktop and many things to like - but their repositories could use some more packages.
At any rate, FreeBSD is undeniably the most well-supported BSD operating system today.

Welcome to Salix. I had a thread over on Debian from years ago when they switched to systemd....it was something along the lines of what distros to consider if you want to avoid systemd....

I was there, have seen that.

[brocashelm]

Welcome to Salix. I had a thread over on Debian from years ago when they switched to systemd....it was something along the lines of what distros to consider if you want to avoid systemd....

Thanks for the welcome! I saw your thread and really enjoyed the replies. It's comforting to know that there were more regulars in opposition to Systemd than carelessly shilling it. Perhaps it has gotten "better" with time, but the fact remains that it is a feature creep and tries to be more than just PID1. The biggest irony, of course, that being Lennart Poettering moving over to Microsoft (ergo Systemd is now a Microsoft "thing" ).

I'm not sure what you mean, but if you mean what I think you do, I have to say you don't judge a distribution by the political beliefs of its developer. Admittedly, antiX developer doesn't hide his philosophy, but I am perfectly ok with that. At least he is honest, you have to grant him that. If the few links in Firefox bother you, just delete them - there, "problem" solved.
The fact is, antiX delivers - especially in old hardware. I have an eePC with the worst graphics card even made, and system runs dead slow in any GNU/Linux distro I tried because there are no drivers for it. The only distro that runs well in it is antiX.

Oh, I agree with that point. I just wanted to put that out there as yet another reason why I hadn't switched to antiX when I was done with GNU/Linux Mint (I purposely stayed on Sylvia for a while because it was the last release to allow for Upstart as init). Devuan came at the right time for me, although it wasn't until Beowulf that I felt right at home with the whole thing (I had some issues with mounting drives on Ascii, and Jessie was clearly too transitional then). It's the last ship for me when it comes to Debian-based distros, so once that ship sinks, I'll be done with Debian forever. They told me that Trixie is the next stable release after Bookworm and will have even MORE Systemd-drenched nonsense...

From what information I was able to gather, it seems there were conflicts in Void's developers team. Who was "right" and who wasn't is something we would never know for sure. Again, I judge what they made, not who they are.
I like the fact Void is not a fork, it is its own thing, doesn't use Pulseaudio by default, and follows a conservative rolling release scheme, which works.

I will say that XBPS is a cool package manager and would easily meet the needs of your usual Arch GNU/Linux user. I might not agree with their politics (in regards to the original developer being sacked), but that's at least something noteworthy. I think when it comes to a truly unique distro, I'd rather vouch for Alpine GNU/Linux or Hyperbola (although I'm not optimistic they'll have full OpenBSD kernel implementation anytime soon).

I'm not going to defend Mozilla here, I have some concerns about it, as you do. Still, I can see why it is the default browser in Salix. I would also argue that any browser based on that abomination called Chrome (even ung00gled - mind the zeroes) should be out of question. By the way Chrome managed to be that "popular" not because it is better but just because they used a PUP (Potentiall Unwanted Program) "strategy", especially on Window$. Many application installers have Chrome installed as a side effect for most users that don't read the small details and the well-hidden tiny option "also install Chrome" - which is pre-checked, of course.

Yeah, but Ungoogled Chromium and Iridium Browser at least exist to do away with most or all of Google's implemented spyware. Add to that with Mozilla being at Google's mercy, so they're honestly about as bad for me. I definitely prefer to use a Firefox-based browser all the way, though. Pale Moon is my favorite of them all, despite the unprofessional antics of those who shall not be named over the years. It's in part why I've had to use SeaMonkey instead on OpenBSD, but I also like that one as a fallback browser, and Salix carries that on the repositories.

Runit is admittedly faster and simpler, but I am perfectly ok with SysVinit as well. Most of my computers still have HDDs and the problem to coinsider is overheating at hot summer days, not SysVinit.

I don't mind using it, but it's not my first choice in an init. The Systemd fanboys will tell you SysVinit is "too slow", and then you install Runit and put them in their place.

GhostBSD is an african word meaning "I can't configure FreeBSD". I don't like the fact it comes with MATE as default instead of Xfce, even if there is a non-official Xfce version.
MidnightBSD is another option, it has a pre-configured desktop and many things to like - but their repositories could use some more packages.
At any rate, FreeBSD is undeniably the most well-supported BSD operating system today.

I'm not that much of a MATE fan, either, but some of the programs it comes with are essential and have replaced whatever defaults Xfce had, such as Engrampa (archive manager) and Atril (PDF reader). Also, I think Searchmonkey is included on MATE setups, but even then, that one also replaced Catfish for me. Now, if ONLY SpaceFM was still be developed, I could stop using Thunar once and for all.

[DidierSpaier]

I'm not that much of a MATE fan, either, but some of the programs it comes with are essential and have replaced whatever defaults Xfce had, such as Engrampa (archive manager) and Atril (PDF reader). Also, I think Searchmonkey is included on MATE setups, but even then, that one also replaced Catfish for me. Now, if ONLY SpaceFM was still be developed, I could stop using Thunar once and for all.

wrt file managers caja is not bad but I would really miss pcmanfm-qt if I only shipped MATE as DE.

[Papasot]

Now, if ONLY SpaceFM was still be developed, I could stop using Thunar once and for all.

Thunar lacks functionality. PCManFM is better, but still lacks things I use on a daily basis - not to mention any file manager that needs a mouse to work is slow to use by design. I prefer a simpler, lightweight, preferably two-pane, and mostly keyboard-driven file manager with more functionality. And I found such a file manager many years ago. If you don't mind old-school looks, give Worker a try. Admittedly, they tried hard to make it look as ugly as possible by default, but it can be easily configured to look better (still old school though). But it has features mainstream file managers could not even dream of. Worker is included in Salix repositories, and I always have Salix packages for its latest version available here. I do remember Debian had Worker in its repositories, and I bet it still has it. Should be available in Devuan repos as well.

Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to promote anything, and I'm not related to the developer in any way, I am just recommending a niche file manager that I use because it is very good. If it looks too "hardcore", XFE is similar (but not as powerful).

[brocashelm]

wrt file managers caja is not bad but I would really miss pcmanfm-qt if I only shipped MATE as DE.

I have tried Caja before, but it didn't seem to deviate much from Thunar, on top of what makes Thunar a keeper for being being that you can add user custom actions (UCA). It did, however, implement the split view before Thunar got around to it with the 4.18 release!

Thunar lacks functionality. PCManFM is better, but still lacks things I use on a daily basis - not to mention any file manager that needs a mouse to work is slow to use by design. I prefer a simpler, lightweight, preferably two-pane, and mostly keyboard-driven file manager with more functionality. And I found such a file manager many years ago. If you don't mind old-school looks, give Worker a try. Admittedly, they tried hard to make it look as ugly as possible by default, but it can be easily configured to look better (still old school though). But it has features mainstream file managers could not even dream of. Worker is included in Salix repositories, and I always have Salix packages for its latest version available here. I do remember Debian had Worker in its repositories, and I bet it still has it. Should be available in Devuan repos as well.

Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to promote anything, and I'm not related to the developer in any way, I am just recommending a niche file manager that I use because it is very good. If it looks too "hardcore", XFE is similar (but not as powerful).

Cheers for telling me about Worker -- it is in fact available in Debian, so I will give it a shot one of these days. I have used Xfe before, and it's really, really good -- perfect for a D-Bus-free system (you can use Udevil for the automatic mounting and user-permissive unmounting of disks). It is still limited to two panels, but it's definitely an improvement over PCManFM in my book. Regardless, I keep my SpaceFM (GTK2) packages around, in case I'd like to use it over Thunar. The fact that I can customize anything and everything so effortlessly is why it's so good, and I'm glad that Slackware still makes this software available (same as with Udevil). I think a simple rebuild with this thumbnail patch would help with not constantly regenerating thumbnail data on a new session (regardless of past visits -- Tumbler is a resource hog, if not careful).

By the way, if I could be specific about which Devuan I'm using, it's Refracta (which comes with its own tools that Devuan and its other respins use for installing and backing up data on your system), which I think really nails the Xfce defaults down by keeping the resource usage rather low. A common problem with Debian-based distros (Devuan's sole role is to keep Systemd out of your OS) is that Apt will install a bunch of things that you might not actually need, ergo metapackage dependency hells that could take your whole system down for removing just one package. Refracta is pre-configured to avoid that sort of trap, hence less package counts (even if Debian does separate library and development files into separate packages, which can be annoying if you need to get specific software installed or compiled). If it wasn't for Devuan, I might've been done with anything Debian-related completely. I guess "we'll see" how Trixie turns out, what with the whole UsrMerge drama and having PipeWire further included into the dependencies.

[Papasot]

what makes Thunar a keeper for being being that you can add user custom actions (UCA).
...
It is still limited to two panels, but it's definitely an improvement over PCManFM in my book

If you liked Thunar's UCAs you will like Worker even more, because it has a lot more of those, plus the ability to make your own.
Worker is also limited to two panes, but each pane has an unlimited amount of independent tabs, so essectuially unlimited panes, just two of them visible at a time.